1 00:00:00,020 --> 00:00:03,619 ALAN BATES: The computer system Post Office spent an arm and a leg on 2 00:00:03,620 --> 00:00:04,659 is faulty. 3 00:00:04,660 --> 00:00:06,259 I haven't got that money! 4 00:00:06,260 --> 00:00:09,979 The losses must have been caused by Mr Castleton's own error. 5 00:00:09,980 --> 00:00:14,499 You're inside subpostmasters' Horizon... and he doesn't know? 6 00:00:14,500 --> 00:00:18,379 We're ready to mount and fund an independent review. 7 00:00:18,380 --> 00:00:20,499 Mr Rutherford's organisation, Second Sight, 8 00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:25,779 will be working for us, the MPs, and therefore indirectly for you. 9 00:00:25,780 --> 00:00:29,059 They had no right to take you to court at all. 10 00:00:29,060 --> 00:00:32,539 They destroyed our whole life... for a lie? 11 00:00:32,540 --> 00:00:35,299 Alan, it's Paula Vennells. 12 00:00:35,300 --> 00:00:37,940 Where do we go from here? 13 00:01:11,860 --> 00:01:14,980 Sorry, Martin, I hit every red light on the way here, mate. 14 00:01:18,100 --> 00:01:20,939 You get later every day. Oh, come on. 15 00:01:20,940 --> 00:01:22,780 You don't get no more cheerful, pal. 16 00:01:24,060 --> 00:01:27,499 Just need to get home. Ah, we all do, mate. Long day? 17 00:01:27,500 --> 00:01:28,979 They're all long days. 18 00:01:28,980 --> 00:01:31,059 Any specials with these? 19 00:01:31,060 --> 00:01:34,059 Giro pouch. Cheque pouch. 20 00:01:34,060 --> 00:01:36,900 I'll have to come back for them. Yeah. 21 00:01:47,020 --> 00:01:48,300 WEARILY: Oh. 22 00:02:00,500 --> 00:02:03,380 MEN SHOUT, CRASHING 23 00:02:05,780 --> 00:02:08,180 AGGRESSIVE SHOUTING 24 00:02:11,860 --> 00:02:14,100 MARTIN YELLS IN PAIN 25 00:02:16,340 --> 00:02:18,899 Please! No... don't...! 26 00:02:18,900 --> 00:02:20,539 Don't! 27 00:02:20,540 --> 00:02:22,339 MUFFLED SHOUTS 28 00:02:22,340 --> 00:02:24,939 Stay there! Don't look at me! 29 00:02:24,940 --> 00:02:27,900 YELLING CONTINUES 30 00:02:32,260 --> 00:02:34,059 Come on, hurry up! 31 00:02:34,060 --> 00:02:36,459 Please! Hurry up! 32 00:02:36,460 --> 00:02:37,619 Go, go, go, go! 33 00:02:37,620 --> 00:02:39,980 MARTIN YELLS 34 00:02:41,340 --> 00:02:43,180 HE YELPS AND GASPS 35 00:02:55,900 --> 00:02:59,579 Martin, let's talk about what happened. 36 00:02:59,580 --> 00:03:05,580 The total loss to Post Office funds that day were £54,354.96. 37 00:03:06,260 --> 00:03:08,539 The police were there in five minutes. 38 00:03:08,540 --> 00:03:10,699 They got most of it back. 39 00:03:10,700 --> 00:03:13,939 This is a culpability interview, Martin. 40 00:03:13,940 --> 00:03:16,619 You had the parcel hatch open and the safe. 41 00:03:16,620 --> 00:03:19,579 In accordance with section 12, paragraph 18 42 00:03:19,580 --> 00:03:22,139 of the subpostmasters' contract... WOMAN CALLS: Martin? 43 00:03:22,140 --> 00:03:24,259 ..you're bound to take reasonable precautions 44 00:03:24,260 --> 00:03:26,299 to safeguard official cash and property. 45 00:03:26,300 --> 00:03:27,419 DOOR CLOSES 46 00:03:27,420 --> 00:03:30,059 You are therefore contractually liable for an amount of... 47 00:03:30,060 --> 00:03:32,259 Seven and a half thousand pounds? 48 00:03:32,260 --> 00:03:34,739 So now the armed robbery is our fault, too. 49 00:03:34,740 --> 00:03:37,459 It wasn't the robbery that got me sacked. 50 00:03:37,460 --> 00:03:40,220 Sacked? What? 51 00:03:42,140 --> 00:03:45,619 I'm already under investigation for the Horizon shortfalls, 52 00:03:45,620 --> 00:03:47,699 and now the robbery. 53 00:03:47,700 --> 00:03:48,940 Three months' notice. 54 00:03:49,940 --> 00:03:51,099 Oh, Martin. 55 00:03:51,100 --> 00:03:55,900 For four years of, every day, opening that door, waiting for... 56 00:03:57,180 --> 00:03:58,979 For what? 57 00:03:58,980 --> 00:04:01,460 For the day to end. 58 00:04:08,660 --> 00:04:12,139 "Terminated for continued poor accounting performance, 59 00:04:12,140 --> 00:04:15,499 "not operating individual stock units correctly. 60 00:04:15,500 --> 00:04:17,979 ' "Failure to make good losses in a timely manner." 61 00:04:17,980 --> 00:04:19,219 'They're just going on' 62 00:04:19,220 --> 00:04:23,419 and on about the contract and blaming Martin for everything, 63 00:04:23,420 --> 00:04:25,620 never accepting it's Horizon's fault. 64 00:04:26,900 --> 00:04:28,900 How big did the shortfalls get? 65 00:04:32,060 --> 00:04:34,340 £61,000 altogether. 66 00:04:36,020 --> 00:04:38,659 'They've had our savings already. 67 00:04:38,660 --> 00:04:40,260 'And our parents'.' 68 00:04:41,660 --> 00:04:43,940 Alan, we've nothing left to give. 69 00:04:45,860 --> 00:04:47,299 OK. SUZANNE: Wow! 70 00:04:47,300 --> 00:04:49,619 JO: Every time we meet, there's more of us... 71 00:04:49,620 --> 00:04:52,019 There's the vegetarian ones... Thank you. 72 00:04:52,020 --> 00:04:53,499 ..and we're always ravenous. 73 00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:55,660 Have we eaten Alan? LAUGHTER 74 00:04:56,700 --> 00:04:59,019 That phone is a full-time job. 75 00:04:59,020 --> 00:05:01,819 LEE: And the effect it had on the family was... 76 00:05:01,820 --> 00:05:04,459 I mean, not just me and Lisa, but, you know, the kids, we... 77 00:05:04,460 --> 00:05:06,579 I mean, we had to move the schools, you know, 78 00:05:06,580 --> 00:05:07,659 cos of the bullying. 79 00:05:07,660 --> 00:05:12,180 And then our daughter, Millie-Jo, she hit her teens and... 80 00:05:14,780 --> 00:05:16,460 ..just stopped eating. 81 00:05:17,940 --> 00:05:20,019 It was anorexia. 82 00:05:20,020 --> 00:05:22,939 And they say don't blame yourselves. But you do. 83 00:05:22,940 --> 00:05:25,820 Yeah, of course you do. And nobody understands, do they? 84 00:05:27,140 --> 00:05:29,499 Jo's always been very kind to us, hasn't she? 85 00:05:29,500 --> 00:05:30,940 We call her, "Mum". Yeah. 86 00:05:31,980 --> 00:05:34,579 If she's Mum, what's Alan? Dad? 87 00:05:34,580 --> 00:05:36,699 CHUCKLING: We don't call him Dad. 88 00:05:36,700 --> 00:05:38,419 Alan's the godfather. 89 00:05:38,420 --> 00:05:40,860 Shall we, eh, crack on? 90 00:05:41,900 --> 00:05:43,940 Yep. The Don has spoken. 91 00:05:45,180 --> 00:05:47,299 You all right? Yeah. 92 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:52,340 The thing is, Alan, I'm not sure my computer was really the problem. 93 00:05:53,420 --> 00:05:56,339 I just had endless power cuts. 94 00:05:56,340 --> 00:05:58,499 36 of them in one day. 95 00:05:58,500 --> 00:06:02,059 If you get a power cut in the middle of a transaction, poof! 96 00:06:02,060 --> 00:06:03,780 No wonder it comes out wrong. 97 00:06:04,980 --> 00:06:08,819 You see, erm, my husband died... 98 00:06:08,820 --> 00:06:10,979 and I took over. 99 00:06:10,980 --> 00:06:13,739 It was just before Horizon was installed. 100 00:06:13,740 --> 00:06:18,499 But then they didn't put the new electricity lines in properly. 101 00:06:18,500 --> 00:06:20,139 Oh, Pam. Really? 102 00:06:20,140 --> 00:06:22,939 Doesn't it just go to show how absolutely bloody useless 103 00:06:22,940 --> 00:06:25,859 they can be about the simplest bloody things? 104 00:06:25,860 --> 00:06:30,220 I told them when they closed me down, I said... 105 00:06:31,460 --> 00:06:35,699 .."If you can prove that I stole that money, 106 00:06:35,700 --> 00:06:38,740 "then send the police round, send them now." 107 00:06:42,580 --> 00:06:45,339 Since then, I have not slept. 108 00:06:45,340 --> 00:06:48,539 And I've been scared every waking moment, 109 00:06:48,540 --> 00:06:50,980 expecting that knock on the door. 110 00:06:52,420 --> 00:06:54,460 I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. 111 00:06:58,620 --> 00:07:01,180 You've got nothing to be sorry for, Pam. 112 00:07:04,580 --> 00:07:07,260 I'm just so... I'm just so angry. 113 00:07:08,900 --> 00:07:11,900 I hate being so angry! 114 00:07:12,980 --> 00:07:16,259 If I ever say I'm going to give this up, 115 00:07:16,260 --> 00:07:18,660 remind me about people like Pam. 116 00:07:20,820 --> 00:07:24,299 So, to, er, to recap, er, 117 00:07:24,300 --> 00:07:30,059 my chat with Paula Vennells has resulted in a new investigation 118 00:07:30,060 --> 00:07:34,539 and mediation scheme which will allow all of us to apply 119 00:07:34,540 --> 00:07:36,539 for the compensation we deserve. 120 00:07:36,540 --> 00:07:39,779 Even people like me and Jo? 121 00:07:39,780 --> 00:07:44,019 Alan's got their commitment here in black and white. 122 00:07:44,020 --> 00:07:48,379 The Post Office says you may put your case 123 00:07:48,380 --> 00:07:50,299 through the mediation scheme, 124 00:07:50,300 --> 00:07:54,059 even if you've already received a police caution 125 00:07:54,060 --> 00:07:59,459 or been subject to a criminal prosecution or conviction. 126 00:07:59,460 --> 00:08:00,939 If we got our money back. 127 00:08:00,940 --> 00:08:02,379 And our good names. 128 00:08:02,380 --> 00:08:03,579 An apology, even. 129 00:08:03,580 --> 00:08:07,179 Steady on. Or just getting to the truth. 130 00:08:07,180 --> 00:08:09,579 So, with your agreement, 131 00:08:09,580 --> 00:08:14,019 Kay and I will defend your interests every step of the way. 132 00:08:14,020 --> 00:08:18,379 We will look into each individual case and fight our corner. 133 00:08:18,380 --> 00:08:21,739 I know, but, Alan, do you trust them? 134 00:08:21,740 --> 00:08:24,420 I mean, do we trust them? Really? 135 00:08:25,740 --> 00:08:28,019 Well... CHUCKLES 136 00:08:28,020 --> 00:08:31,099 ..they're putting money and effort into it, 137 00:08:31,100 --> 00:08:33,219 and it's coming from the top, so... 138 00:08:33,220 --> 00:08:37,220 Well, it's got to be worth a try. 139 00:08:38,660 --> 00:08:40,420 Shall we have a vote? 140 00:08:41,700 --> 00:08:44,020 All those in favour? 141 00:08:53,660 --> 00:08:54,819 Great. 142 00:08:54,820 --> 00:08:55,979 42 pence change. 143 00:08:55,980 --> 00:08:59,179 Book of six first-class stamps, please. There you go, thank you. 144 00:08:59,180 --> 00:09:02,579 £3.60. Sorry? 145 00:09:02,580 --> 00:09:04,540 LOUDER: £3.60. 146 00:09:15,660 --> 00:09:20,219 GINA: 'For a long time, he suspected the staff, you know, 147 00:09:20,220 --> 00:09:23,019 'of stealing from the tills. 148 00:09:23,020 --> 00:09:25,299 'The bad feeling that's still causing. 149 00:09:25,300 --> 00:09:28,179 'But if it wasn't them, then it had to be his fault, 150 00:09:28,180 --> 00:09:30,060 'like he's stupid, which he isn't.' 151 00:09:31,580 --> 00:09:34,580 That was before - before we knew about the Horizon thing. 152 00:09:36,860 --> 00:09:38,899 Can I talk to him? 153 00:09:38,900 --> 00:09:40,819 'Well, he won't talk to me about it, even now.' 154 00:09:40,820 --> 00:09:42,700 It drives me mad. 155 00:09:44,340 --> 00:09:46,660 I know he's got depression. 156 00:09:47,780 --> 00:09:51,060 He's a proud father, and I think he thinks he's failed us. 157 00:09:52,180 --> 00:09:53,580 'Failed our family.' 158 00:09:55,340 --> 00:09:57,299 Gina... 159 00:09:57,300 --> 00:09:58,980 put him on. 160 00:10:07,740 --> 00:10:09,340 Love. 161 00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:16,619 It's Alan Bates. 162 00:10:16,620 --> 00:10:19,219 He wants to talk to you. 163 00:10:19,220 --> 00:10:21,900 Please, Martin. 164 00:10:30,460 --> 00:10:32,499 Martin? 165 00:10:32,500 --> 00:10:34,019 'Yes.' 166 00:10:34,020 --> 00:10:37,259 Listen. Martin... 167 00:10:37,260 --> 00:10:39,779 you're not alone. 168 00:10:39,780 --> 00:10:41,419 There's a lot of us, and... 169 00:10:41,420 --> 00:10:43,859 'there's a new scheme you can apply for. 170 00:10:43,860 --> 00:10:46,099 'I'm going to send you the forms. 171 00:10:46,100 --> 00:10:48,459 'Martin, you might get some of your money back.' 172 00:10:48,460 --> 00:10:50,220 Erm... 173 00:10:51,380 --> 00:10:53,179 AGITATED: I can't talk to you right now. 174 00:10:53,180 --> 00:10:54,700 Ma... 175 00:10:56,060 --> 00:10:58,260 People are trying to help here! 176 00:10:59,740 --> 00:11:01,179 'I'm so sorry. Erm...' 177 00:11:01,180 --> 00:11:04,699 He's just... He's... 'It's OK, Gina.' 178 00:11:04,700 --> 00:11:08,539 I'll send you the forms, but get him to apply. 179 00:11:08,540 --> 00:11:10,540 It's important. 180 00:11:13,420 --> 00:11:15,580 I'll try. 181 00:11:19,700 --> 00:11:21,939 Bloody traffic. 182 00:11:21,940 --> 00:11:24,099 Hi. Oh, hi. 183 00:11:24,100 --> 00:11:26,619 I'm a little late for a meeting with Susan Crichton. 184 00:11:26,620 --> 00:11:28,779 Bob. Good to see you. 185 00:11:28,780 --> 00:11:31,340 Susan's left us. 186 00:11:32,740 --> 00:11:33,899 Why? 187 00:11:33,900 --> 00:11:36,419 New times, new opportunities. 188 00:11:36,420 --> 00:11:39,980 Moving forward, I'll be your main point of contact. 189 00:11:42,540 --> 00:11:45,299 'This is Susan Crichton. I have left the Post Office. 190 00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:47,259 'Thank you for NOT leaving a message.' 191 00:11:47,260 --> 00:11:48,700 Bob... 192 00:11:50,140 --> 00:11:51,340 ..we need to talk. 193 00:11:52,580 --> 00:11:55,659 'I'm not bloody signing up to this nonsense.' 194 00:11:55,660 --> 00:11:58,579 The Post Office want me to stay on, but it's pointless. 195 00:11:58,580 --> 00:12:01,299 They've unilaterally taken away our access to 196 00:12:01,300 --> 00:12:02,939 the legal and prosecution files. 197 00:12:02,940 --> 00:12:07,299 I can't investigate in a blindfold with both hands tied behind my back. 198 00:12:07,300 --> 00:12:09,459 Alan, professionally, I just can't do it. 199 00:12:09,460 --> 00:12:11,179 Bob, grit your teeth. 200 00:12:11,180 --> 00:12:13,099 We can't do this without you. 201 00:12:13,100 --> 00:12:14,819 I don't know why you're doing it at all. 202 00:12:14,820 --> 00:12:17,459 You do know why. We have to go to mediation 203 00:12:17,460 --> 00:12:19,419 because we can't afford to go it alone. 204 00:12:19,420 --> 00:12:21,019 You're an idiot to trust them, Alan. 205 00:12:21,020 --> 00:12:23,379 I think they're mostly just a bunch of lying bastards. 206 00:12:23,380 --> 00:12:25,419 And I think they're wasting your time and mine. 207 00:12:25,420 --> 00:12:27,739 Bob, if you walk away now, 208 00:12:27,740 --> 00:12:30,659 you'll never find out which of those bastards IS lying, 209 00:12:30,660 --> 00:12:33,659 what they knew and when. 210 00:12:33,660 --> 00:12:37,860 And you'll never find out what happens at the end of the story. 211 00:12:38,900 --> 00:12:41,059 BOB CHUCKLES 212 00:12:41,060 --> 00:12:42,499 We must both be mad. 213 00:12:42,500 --> 00:12:45,220 We are. Pint? 214 00:12:46,820 --> 00:12:48,500 GINA: Big day tomorrow. 215 00:12:50,460 --> 00:12:52,700 Your appeal against dismissal. 216 00:12:55,460 --> 00:12:57,940 Martin. 217 00:13:06,700 --> 00:13:09,139 Why don't I run you a bath? It'll relax you. 218 00:13:09,140 --> 00:13:11,780 I'm all right. I'm OK, I'm OK. 219 00:13:15,260 --> 00:13:19,299 Please let me wash these clothes, you've been wearing them for days. 220 00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:21,699 Don't you wanna wash your hair, love? No. Stop. 221 00:13:21,700 --> 00:13:23,379 For tomorrow! Gina. 222 00:13:23,380 --> 00:13:24,899 NERVOUSLY: It's a big day. 223 00:13:24,900 --> 00:13:26,579 All I'm saying is... Gina... Gina... 224 00:13:26,580 --> 00:13:29,659 ..we could just make a little bit of an effort to look nice. 225 00:13:29,660 --> 00:13:31,539 Gina, leave me alone, please. 226 00:13:31,540 --> 00:13:33,180 OK. 227 00:13:42,380 --> 00:13:43,939 'We've been over this.' 228 00:13:43,940 --> 00:13:45,619 A parcel hatch is about that big. 229 00:13:45,620 --> 00:13:47,659 Then you've got a sack of mail, which is... 230 00:13:47,660 --> 00:13:49,780 You know how big a sack of mail is, yeah? 231 00:13:51,500 --> 00:13:55,139 Once they were in with weapons, even if the safe was closed, 232 00:13:55,140 --> 00:13:58,860 what would you do if they threatened you and said, "Open the safe!"? 233 00:14:03,580 --> 00:14:05,979 ON RADIO: I hope you're having a fabulous morning. 234 00:14:05,980 --> 00:14:07,939 The time is now coming up to 6:20AM, 235 00:14:07,940 --> 00:14:09,819 and it's time for a little traffic update. 236 00:14:09,820 --> 00:14:13,419 It looks like there's congestion on the M62, 237 00:14:13,420 --> 00:14:16,059 and it's building up to the Runcorn turn-off. 238 00:14:16,060 --> 00:14:18,339 Martin? DOOR SHUTS 239 00:14:18,340 --> 00:14:20,620 You're off early, love. 240 00:14:27,380 --> 00:14:29,380 RADIO CONTINUES 241 00:15:27,700 --> 00:15:28,979 Sorry. 242 00:15:28,980 --> 00:15:31,579 Morning. Where is he? 243 00:15:31,580 --> 00:15:33,980 We don't know. Martin? 244 00:15:41,980 --> 00:15:45,459 It's not working. I know it's not the other one. 245 00:15:45,460 --> 00:15:48,460 It's... Are you Mrs Griffiths? 246 00:15:50,100 --> 00:15:52,460 Can we have a word in private? N... 247 00:16:10,060 --> 00:16:12,220 ALAN ON PHONE: Yes. 248 00:16:13,860 --> 00:16:15,060 OK. 249 00:16:16,540 --> 00:16:19,100 No, I... 250 00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:23,300 Hmm. Of course. 251 00:16:24,660 --> 00:16:26,300 Thanks for letting me know. 252 00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:40,499 He never regained consciousness. 253 00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:42,060 God. 254 00:16:45,260 --> 00:16:48,339 Gina's had to agree to switch off life support. 255 00:16:48,340 --> 00:16:50,100 Oh, Alan! 256 00:16:53,260 --> 00:16:55,340 Blood on their hands now. 257 00:17:29,060 --> 00:17:31,500 He had kids, Lee. 258 00:17:32,780 --> 00:17:34,340 I know. 259 00:17:36,660 --> 00:17:39,860 I expect he thought he was doing them a favour. 260 00:17:43,420 --> 00:17:47,220 Are you doing it, ever? No, no. 261 00:17:49,340 --> 00:17:51,420 No. Not really. 262 00:17:53,580 --> 00:17:55,180 GASPS 263 00:17:59,140 --> 00:18:01,620 Sorry. SOBS: Sorry. 264 00:18:03,740 --> 00:18:06,859 ..think about it. I'm sorry. 265 00:18:06,860 --> 00:18:11,660 Don't you... don't you ever do that! 266 00:18:12,820 --> 00:18:18,540 I can't have you feeling bad about this for the rest of your life. 267 00:18:23,460 --> 00:18:26,260 I'd have just walked away. 268 00:18:29,740 --> 00:18:32,899 I could have just shut the shop. 269 00:18:32,900 --> 00:18:38,900 Just put us on a slow boat to China. I could have done that. 270 00:18:39,180 --> 00:18:42,219 And they'd have chased us all the way to China for that money, Lee. 271 00:18:42,220 --> 00:18:44,780 They were never going to let go. 272 00:18:48,500 --> 00:18:49,820 Hey. 273 00:18:51,180 --> 00:18:53,700 I know you did it for us. 274 00:18:59,180 --> 00:19:00,900 GINA: I can't think straight. 275 00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:05,939 I don't know what to do. 276 00:19:05,940 --> 00:19:08,300 It's really very good of you to come. 277 00:19:09,860 --> 00:19:13,579 We're all so sorry for your loss. 278 00:19:13,580 --> 00:19:15,499 It was four days before his notice ran out, 279 00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:18,060 and he still hadn't told the staff he'd been sacked. 280 00:19:19,180 --> 00:19:21,459 Yes, it's very hard. 281 00:19:21,460 --> 00:19:22,939 And his appeal 282 00:19:22,940 --> 00:19:25,779 against being fined for the robbery, it didn't come to anything. 283 00:19:25,780 --> 00:19:27,819 They didn't decide one way or the other. 284 00:19:27,820 --> 00:19:29,939 Stressful. 285 00:19:29,940 --> 00:19:31,859 Obviously. 286 00:19:31,860 --> 00:19:34,100 I used to get so cross with him, Angela. 287 00:19:35,460 --> 00:19:37,939 I never did understand the problem, 288 00:19:37,940 --> 00:19:40,779 and he couldn't explain it, just every morning going to work 289 00:19:40,780 --> 00:19:41,979 and saying he was desperate. 290 00:19:41,980 --> 00:19:44,859 He was really desperate. 291 00:19:44,860 --> 00:19:47,939 Every morning, the same words. 292 00:19:47,940 --> 00:19:49,980 "I hate it." 293 00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:56,300 "I can't bear it." 294 00:19:59,740 --> 00:20:01,500 For years. 295 00:20:05,540 --> 00:20:07,140 Can you imagine? 296 00:20:13,260 --> 00:20:15,460 We, er... 297 00:20:17,580 --> 00:20:20,619 ..we're going to do right by you, Gina. 298 00:20:20,620 --> 00:20:23,100 You can rely on us. 299 00:20:26,260 --> 00:20:27,660 Yeah. 300 00:20:28,740 --> 00:20:31,299 ANGELA: So, as we launch this mediation scheme, 301 00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:33,419 I can confirm our agreement 302 00:20:33,420 --> 00:20:36,139 that Martin Griffiths' case will be dealt with 303 00:20:36,140 --> 00:20:38,220 as a priority by this working group. 304 00:20:40,020 --> 00:20:43,019 Now, you've also received a request from the family 305 00:20:43,020 --> 00:20:46,539 that any approaches to Gina should come through me. 306 00:20:46,540 --> 00:20:50,459 Yes. Yes, we are happy to agree to this, too. 307 00:20:50,460 --> 00:20:54,819 Shall we declare this mediation scheme up and running? Yes. 308 00:20:54,820 --> 00:20:57,339 We have a long list of cases to examine. 309 00:20:57,340 --> 00:20:59,940 So let's get started. 310 00:21:01,340 --> 00:21:05,059 Right, then, start with Martin. 311 00:21:05,060 --> 00:21:07,099 First things first... 312 00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:08,819 Mr Griffiths. 313 00:21:08,820 --> 00:21:11,619 INTERVIEWER ON RADIO: 'Profits falling, Mrs Vennells. 314 00:21:11,620 --> 00:21:13,739 'Government subsidy on its way out. 315 00:21:13,740 --> 00:21:16,419 'That means a reckoning is on the horizon, does it not?' 316 00:21:16,420 --> 00:21:18,179 VENNELLS: 'It does, absolutely.' 317 00:21:18,180 --> 00:21:20,619 And the whole point about this investment programme 318 00:21:20,620 --> 00:21:24,379 is to make sure we have models that are commercially sustainable. 319 00:21:24,380 --> 00:21:26,379 'And my ambition would be...' Yes. 320 00:21:26,380 --> 00:21:29,259 '..that within three to four years' time...' Horizon. 321 00:21:29,260 --> 00:21:31,659 ..the Post Office doesn't need to take taxpayers' money 322 00:21:31,660 --> 00:21:35,859 to support those post offices that can be commercially profitable. 323 00:21:35,860 --> 00:21:38,179 'So, Paula, if you don't mind me asking, 324 00:21:38,180 --> 00:21:41,379 'you're CEO of the Post Office...' Ask her about Horizon. 325 00:21:41,380 --> 00:21:43,659 '..but you're also a priest in the Church of England. 326 00:21:43,660 --> 00:21:45,699 'How do you combine those two roles?' 327 00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:48,339 Very good, thank you. 328 00:21:48,340 --> 00:21:50,939 Good to see you. Thank you very much. 329 00:21:50,940 --> 00:21:54,659 Just one thing. This, erm, Horizon business. 330 00:21:54,660 --> 00:21:57,619 Anything in it? I beg your pardon? 331 00:21:57,620 --> 00:22:02,100 Horizon. Some lurid allegations out there. 332 00:22:04,300 --> 00:22:05,860 Well, er... 333 00:22:07,540 --> 00:22:10,099 Well, after two and a half years of investigations, 334 00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:13,339 it is now clear that the Horizon system is robust 335 00:22:13,340 --> 00:22:15,739 and works as it should. 336 00:22:15,740 --> 00:22:17,380 Thank you. 337 00:22:23,540 --> 00:22:25,899 'And God said to Solomon...' 338 00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:29,619 "Ask for whatever you want me to give you." 339 00:22:29,620 --> 00:22:32,499 And Solomon said... 340 00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:35,859 "Give your servant a discerning heart 341 00:22:35,860 --> 00:22:37,259 "to govern your people 342 00:22:37,260 --> 00:22:40,460 "and to distinguish between right and wrong." 343 00:22:41,940 --> 00:22:45,899 The Lord was pleased that Solomon had asked for this. 344 00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:48,579 So God said to him... 345 00:22:48,580 --> 00:22:50,940 "I will do what you have asked. 346 00:22:52,180 --> 00:22:57,220 "I will give you a wise and discerning heart." 347 00:23:01,180 --> 00:23:05,059 PAM: I've been preparing for this mediation hearing for months. 348 00:23:05,060 --> 00:23:07,939 You will remember that I asked to see this data, 349 00:23:07,940 --> 00:23:10,499 the ARQ data from your system, 350 00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:13,619 so that I could see if it matched up to my data 351 00:23:13,620 --> 00:23:16,099 from my till in my branch. 352 00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:17,859 I kept everything, you see. 353 00:23:17,860 --> 00:23:20,139 Now, you told me 354 00:23:20,140 --> 00:23:22,819 I wouldn't be capable of interpreting the ARQ data 355 00:23:22,820 --> 00:23:26,620 because I was a silly woman or something. 356 00:23:27,580 --> 00:23:30,940 Anyway, may I direct you to page seven? 357 00:23:33,740 --> 00:23:36,939 Now, you will clearly see a two-hour period 358 00:23:36,940 --> 00:23:40,579 when money alterations were being put in, 359 00:23:40,580 --> 00:23:44,380 but not by me, because I was serving customers. 360 00:23:45,620 --> 00:23:48,779 There is no functionality in the Horizon system 361 00:23:48,780 --> 00:23:50,619 to remotely access branch terminals. 362 00:23:50,620 --> 00:23:53,539 LAUGHS INCREDULOUSLY I just proved there is! 363 00:23:53,540 --> 00:23:56,739 Mrs Stubbs, we have to tell you now that, 364 00:23:56,740 --> 00:23:58,899 at this mediation meeting, 365 00:23:58,900 --> 00:24:02,059 we are under no legal or moral obligation 366 00:24:02,060 --> 00:24:04,379 to do anything whatsoever. 367 00:24:04,380 --> 00:24:07,299 And we are working on the principle of the contract, 368 00:24:07,300 --> 00:24:10,900 which says that if you lose money, you repay it. 369 00:24:12,420 --> 00:24:14,379 Well... 370 00:24:14,380 --> 00:24:17,099 I'm finished with this, actually. 371 00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:18,899 I'm finished with you. 372 00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:20,659 See, I think you're lying to me. 373 00:24:20,660 --> 00:24:24,939 Mrs Stubbs, calm... And I KNOW you're patronising me. 374 00:24:24,940 --> 00:24:28,379 And I'm going to tell the whole world what you are like. 375 00:24:28,380 --> 00:24:31,379 May I remind you that you have signed a non-disclosure agreement? 376 00:24:31,380 --> 00:24:35,419 I'll talk to anyone who will listen, I'll stand up with all my papers, 377 00:24:35,420 --> 00:24:38,699 and I will prove you lied about this. 378 00:24:38,700 --> 00:24:41,139 Mrs Stubbs, this will have legal ramifications... Oh! 379 00:24:41,140 --> 00:24:45,100 You want to take me to court? I couldn't give a toss! 380 00:24:50,460 --> 00:24:53,180 'The way they treat people... 381 00:24:54,620 --> 00:24:56,739 'They are despicable! 382 00:24:56,740 --> 00:24:59,459 'I have never, ever been made to feel like this...' 383 00:24:59,460 --> 00:25:01,339 AUDIO BREAKS UP '..in my entire life. 384 00:25:01,340 --> 00:25:04,099 Pam? Pam? 385 00:25:04,100 --> 00:25:05,979 You're... You're breaking up. AUDIO CRACKLES 386 00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:08,780 I mean, are they lying or... or just stupid? 387 00:25:10,540 --> 00:25:12,060 Hello? 388 00:25:16,660 --> 00:25:21,060 For a while there, right at the start of mediation... 389 00:25:23,900 --> 00:25:26,460 ..you got close to trusting them, didn't you? 390 00:25:28,220 --> 00:25:30,299 Maybe... 391 00:25:30,300 --> 00:25:34,419 despite every awful story they've heard, 392 00:25:34,420 --> 00:25:37,139 despite all the work we've done, 393 00:25:37,140 --> 00:25:38,820 they still don't get it. 394 00:25:40,420 --> 00:25:43,259 They actually believe they're right. 395 00:25:43,260 --> 00:25:45,579 I understand your impatience, of course I do. 396 00:25:45,580 --> 00:25:47,139 But, Alan, really? 397 00:25:47,140 --> 00:25:50,259 Four closely typed pages of complaint? 398 00:25:50,260 --> 00:25:53,859 "Finding the truth is the last thing they're interested in"? 399 00:25:53,860 --> 00:25:57,779 Well, that's been our experience of their investigation. 400 00:25:57,780 --> 00:25:59,299 Well, will you at least acknowledge 401 00:25:59,300 --> 00:26:00,939 that, before writing to the minister, 402 00:26:00,940 --> 00:26:04,220 it might possibly have been useful to raise your concerns with Paula? 403 00:26:06,060 --> 00:26:09,060 Martin Griffiths is dead. 404 00:26:10,460 --> 00:26:12,100 Yes, I know. 405 00:26:13,220 --> 00:26:16,299 I, too, am concerned about the length of time 406 00:26:16,300 --> 00:26:19,499 mediation is taking, but Paula is very exercised. 407 00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:25,139 I'm sorry, James, but, ha, these mediation hearings are a joke. 408 00:26:25,140 --> 00:26:28,100 Well, let's just ask Paula about that, shall we? 409 00:26:31,780 --> 00:26:34,259 'No, we have not dragged our feet.' 410 00:26:34,260 --> 00:26:38,659 I've had 22 people working on this, full-time, for more than a year. 411 00:26:38,660 --> 00:26:41,419 But not a single case finalised. 412 00:26:41,420 --> 00:26:43,539 And now I am told that people are walking out 413 00:26:43,540 --> 00:26:44,979 of their mediation meetings. 414 00:26:44,980 --> 00:26:48,979 Yes, it has taken longer than we would've liked. 415 00:26:48,980 --> 00:26:50,899 As chief executive of the Post Office, 416 00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:54,139 I could not put this scheme in place and not do it properly. 417 00:26:54,140 --> 00:26:57,179 The system... and the people who work in our branches 418 00:26:57,180 --> 00:26:58,579 are too important for that. 419 00:26:58,580 --> 00:27:01,739 Well, at least we can agree on that one. 420 00:27:01,740 --> 00:27:04,339 Let's be clear, we still have allegations here 421 00:27:04,340 --> 00:27:06,140 of miscarriage of justice. 422 00:27:07,420 --> 00:27:09,979 Our lawyers advise the correct route 423 00:27:09,980 --> 00:27:12,859 for challenges to criminal prosecutions 424 00:27:12,860 --> 00:27:15,339 is via the Criminal Cases Review Commission... Hold on. 425 00:27:15,340 --> 00:27:16,619 Hold on. ..to the Appeal Court. 426 00:27:16,620 --> 00:27:19,579 No, you made promises, Paula. You promised me personally 427 00:27:19,580 --> 00:27:21,899 that my constituent, Jo Hamilton, 428 00:27:21,900 --> 00:27:25,939 whom I believe was wrongly convicted and with whom all of this started, 429 00:27:25,940 --> 00:27:27,819 would be eligible for mediation. 430 00:27:27,820 --> 00:27:30,419 Our lawyers advise that no mediation scheme 431 00:27:30,420 --> 00:27:33,539 has the power to overturn a criminal conviction. 432 00:27:33,540 --> 00:27:35,060 Paula, this is quite wrong. 433 00:27:36,420 --> 00:27:38,299 You have broken your word to me. 434 00:27:38,300 --> 00:27:42,100 And you have broken your word to the subpostmasters. 435 00:27:43,260 --> 00:27:45,780 You have broken your word to Parliament. 436 00:27:52,300 --> 00:27:54,339 JAMES ARBUTHNOT: 'Post Office has broken its word 437 00:27:54,340 --> 00:27:57,139 'to Members of Parliament in so many different respects. 438 00:27:57,140 --> 00:28:01,059 'It may, of course, be that the trade of subpostmastering 439 00:28:01,060 --> 00:28:03,939 'was infiltrated by a sudden rash of criminals. 440 00:28:03,940 --> 00:28:08,939 'I have met a lot of these people, and I personally do not believe it. 441 00:28:08,940 --> 00:28:11,699 'Frankly, I no longer trust the Post Office 442 00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:14,339 'and will not be negotiating with it further. 443 00:28:14,340 --> 00:28:17,219 'It has spent public money on a mediation scheme 444 00:28:17,220 --> 00:28:20,739 'that it has set out to sabotage.' 445 00:28:20,740 --> 00:28:23,419 He says he can get some interest from the select committee. 446 00:28:23,420 --> 00:28:25,979 Oh, not another talking shop. 447 00:28:25,980 --> 00:28:28,819 Personally, I'm looking forward to it. 448 00:28:28,820 --> 00:28:31,179 Probably more than Paula. 449 00:28:31,180 --> 00:28:35,299 PAULA VENNELLS: Is it possible to access the system remotely or not? 450 00:28:35,300 --> 00:28:37,499 I hope it is that we know it is not possible, 451 00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:39,859 and that we're able to explain why that is. 452 00:28:39,860 --> 00:28:43,139 I need to be able to say, "No, it is not possible, 453 00:28:43,140 --> 00:28:46,059 "and we're sure of this because of X, X, X." 454 00:28:46,060 --> 00:28:47,940 I need the facts. 455 00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:54,539 That's Paula. 456 00:28:54,540 --> 00:28:56,619 JO: She looks very smart. 457 00:28:56,620 --> 00:28:58,620 Very corporate. 458 00:29:00,260 --> 00:29:02,499 Who's the other one? 459 00:29:02,500 --> 00:29:04,979 Angela van den Bogerd. 460 00:29:04,980 --> 00:29:07,699 The gruesome twosome. 461 00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:10,740 Don't they have any blokes at the Post Office? 462 00:29:11,740 --> 00:29:14,579 'I have spent a lot of the past 12 months...' 463 00:29:14,580 --> 00:29:16,099 Yes! Come on, Bob. 464 00:29:16,100 --> 00:29:19,619 ..requesting access to documents that have been challenged. 465 00:29:19,620 --> 00:29:24,659 One issue we're looking into relates to Fujitsu's office in Bracknell. 466 00:29:24,660 --> 00:29:27,979 Now, we first requested documents relating to that 467 00:29:27,980 --> 00:29:30,139 almost two years ago, 468 00:29:30,140 --> 00:29:32,819 and we have still not been provided with those documents. 469 00:29:32,820 --> 00:29:35,179 Erm, may I respond? 470 00:29:35,180 --> 00:29:38,299 We did provide a year's worth of emails 471 00:29:38,300 --> 00:29:40,659 that Second Sight requested. 472 00:29:40,660 --> 00:29:43,219 Unfortunately, those emails that were provided 473 00:29:43,220 --> 00:29:44,619 were for the wrong year. 474 00:29:44,620 --> 00:29:48,259 That seems to me an amazing error. 475 00:29:48,260 --> 00:29:50,259 Are there any other issues? 476 00:29:50,260 --> 00:29:52,699 Probably most important would be full access 477 00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:56,299 to the legal and prosecution files held by the Post Office. 478 00:29:56,300 --> 00:29:58,979 Paula, why don't you make those files available? 479 00:29:58,980 --> 00:30:00,979 What's the problem? 480 00:30:00,980 --> 00:30:04,099 The point I want to pick up first, if I may... No, no. 481 00:30:04,100 --> 00:30:05,620 Answer my question. 482 00:30:07,420 --> 00:30:10,219 Er, it is the first time, personally, that I've heard that. 483 00:30:10,220 --> 00:30:11,939 I'm happy to go away and have a look. 484 00:30:11,940 --> 00:30:14,459 They've been told that under no circumstances 485 00:30:14,460 --> 00:30:16,539 could they be given those files. 486 00:30:16,540 --> 00:30:17,859 Is that right or wrong? 487 00:30:17,860 --> 00:30:20,699 I... I do not recall that, no. 488 00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:23,299 And you can piss right off. 489 00:30:23,300 --> 00:30:26,299 That sounds to me like a shambles. 490 00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:28,459 We are hearing from Bob 491 00:30:28,460 --> 00:30:30,459 that your organisation has been obstructive 492 00:30:30,460 --> 00:30:32,139 to his independent work. 493 00:30:32,140 --> 00:30:34,099 Is that right or wrong? 494 00:30:34,100 --> 00:30:36,379 We have provided, for every single case, 495 00:30:36,380 --> 00:30:39,179 detailed, thorough, independent investigation. 496 00:30:39,180 --> 00:30:41,739 Let me stop you there. We've just heard from Bob, 497 00:30:41,740 --> 00:30:44,339 who is independent, that you have not. 498 00:30:44,340 --> 00:30:46,539 You are the head of the organisation. 499 00:30:46,540 --> 00:30:49,539 Will you provide the information, yes or no? 500 00:30:49,540 --> 00:30:52,939 This is the first time that I have been asked for this information. 501 00:30:52,940 --> 00:30:55,019 Yes or no? I am not aware... 502 00:30:55,020 --> 00:30:57,299 Will you provide it? Yes or no? 503 00:30:57,300 --> 00:30:59,539 'Give me a simple answer.' Yes or no? 504 00:30:59,540 --> 00:31:01,899 'I am not prepared, on behalf of the Post Office to give...' 505 00:31:01,900 --> 00:31:04,339 I think I've got my answer. You won't provide it. 506 00:31:04,340 --> 00:31:08,179 No, you have not got your answer. You have not heard a yes or no. 507 00:31:08,180 --> 00:31:10,219 I am simply saying, at the moment, 508 00:31:10,220 --> 00:31:12,619 I am not able to answer your question. 509 00:31:12,620 --> 00:31:14,459 Honestly, I find it quite astonishing 510 00:31:14,460 --> 00:31:16,379 that you don't seem to know anything 511 00:31:16,380 --> 00:31:19,619 about an issue that is so politically and socially sensitive. 512 00:31:19,620 --> 00:31:23,179 I know a huge amount about this. I know the really important things. 513 00:31:23,180 --> 00:31:26,179 You are the chief executive, so the buck stops with you. 514 00:31:26,180 --> 00:31:27,819 It does stop with me. 515 00:31:27,820 --> 00:31:30,099 I am not denying at all that there are problems. 516 00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:31,139 Of course there are. 517 00:31:31,140 --> 00:31:33,819 There are problems in any organisation. 518 00:31:33,820 --> 00:31:36,659 But this is about the reputation of the Post Office. 519 00:31:36,660 --> 00:31:38,859 SUZANNE: 'What?!' 520 00:31:38,860 --> 00:31:42,460 No, it's not! It's about people's lives, you moron. 521 00:31:50,220 --> 00:31:52,139 Slaughtered her. 522 00:31:52,140 --> 00:31:56,059 Paula's face. She had no idea what just happened. 523 00:31:56,060 --> 00:31:59,019 Gina Griffiths has pulled out of the mediation scheme. 524 00:31:59,020 --> 00:32:02,219 Well, that can't be right. Alan would've known that. 525 00:32:02,220 --> 00:32:04,819 Unless they went to her behind our backs. 526 00:32:04,820 --> 00:32:08,140 What kind of people go back on a promise to a grieving widow? 527 00:32:09,820 --> 00:32:12,859 GINA: It's not a huge amount of money. 528 00:32:12,860 --> 00:32:15,419 Not, you know, life-changing. 529 00:32:15,420 --> 00:32:19,059 And in return, you had to pull out of mediation. 530 00:32:19,060 --> 00:32:21,819 I've got nothing coming in, Alan. 531 00:32:21,820 --> 00:32:25,059 I was gonna have to sell the house just to live. 532 00:32:25,060 --> 00:32:29,779 I imagine they also got you to sign a non-disclosure agreement, 533 00:32:29,780 --> 00:32:33,179 promising not to talk to anyone about Martin's case. 534 00:32:33,180 --> 00:32:36,219 I shouldn't even be speaking to you. 535 00:32:36,220 --> 00:32:39,099 They rang up, Alan. They said it was a one-day offer. 536 00:32:39,100 --> 00:32:42,900 If I didn't say yes by the end of the day, then... 537 00:32:44,340 --> 00:32:45,739 I'm sorry. 538 00:32:45,740 --> 00:32:48,579 It's all right, really. 539 00:32:48,580 --> 00:32:50,420 I understand. 540 00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:53,100 Well... CHUCKLES 541 00:32:54,260 --> 00:32:55,940 I don't blame you. 542 00:32:57,860 --> 00:33:00,259 When Angela came to see me... 543 00:33:00,260 --> 00:33:02,539 Angela Van den Bogerd came here? 544 00:33:02,540 --> 00:33:06,820 She was nice... I thought. Kind. 545 00:33:08,460 --> 00:33:12,299 Now I don't know about any of them. I think you just... 546 00:33:12,300 --> 00:33:16,580 We just... cling to a notion, don't we? 547 00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:21,660 That people can't be that bad. 548 00:33:28,660 --> 00:33:30,700 PHONE RINGS 549 00:33:37,020 --> 00:33:38,460 ANGELA: 'Alan?' 550 00:33:39,500 --> 00:33:40,739 Hello, Angela. 551 00:33:40,740 --> 00:33:43,299 Oh, good news. 552 00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:45,099 No more reports for Bob to write. 553 00:33:45,100 --> 00:33:47,259 No more need for you to trail down to London. 554 00:33:47,260 --> 00:33:48,979 No more working group meetings. 555 00:33:48,980 --> 00:33:51,539 'A new way forward.' 556 00:33:51,540 --> 00:33:53,819 You're closing down the mediation scheme? 557 00:33:53,820 --> 00:33:56,219 No, no, no. No, no... no. 558 00:33:56,220 --> 00:33:59,659 Not... Not closing it down. We're... simplifying it. 559 00:33:59,660 --> 00:34:02,219 'We're taking it in-house. 560 00:34:02,220 --> 00:34:05,419 'We'll decide each case individually.' 561 00:34:05,420 --> 00:34:06,899 Closing it down. 562 00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:09,579 After 18 months, it's in everyone's interest 563 00:34:09,580 --> 00:34:12,420 to speed things along now, don't you think? 564 00:34:15,460 --> 00:34:18,779 Well, if that's what you want to do. 'Oh.' 565 00:34:18,780 --> 00:34:20,420 Right. 566 00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:23,259 Well, good to talk. 567 00:34:23,260 --> 00:34:24,699 'Bye, Alan.' 568 00:34:24,700 --> 00:34:26,300 Goodbye, Angela. 569 00:34:41,300 --> 00:34:43,540 Oh, you sods. 570 00:34:44,780 --> 00:34:46,420 Suzanne? 571 00:34:52,620 --> 00:34:54,660 PHONE RINGS 572 00:34:56,340 --> 00:34:58,219 BOB: I'm calling to tell you 573 00:34:58,220 --> 00:35:01,619 that I'm not allowed to talk to you any more. 574 00:35:01,620 --> 00:35:04,459 Sacked again, eh? That was quick. 575 00:35:04,460 --> 00:35:06,779 Well, I considered pointing out that they're not allowed 576 00:35:06,780 --> 00:35:09,339 to just kick you and me off the working group. 577 00:35:09,340 --> 00:35:12,899 Well, they're not allowed to go around ruining people's lives 578 00:35:12,900 --> 00:35:14,259 or breaking their promises. 579 00:35:14,260 --> 00:35:17,579 But since when did that ever stop them? 580 00:35:17,580 --> 00:35:19,419 'They are not just dropping us, Alan. 581 00:35:19,420 --> 00:35:21,299 'They're rubbing our noses in it.' 582 00:35:21,300 --> 00:35:27,019 They're making us destroy or return every single document they gave us. 583 00:35:27,020 --> 00:35:32,060 The whole investigation. Three years' work up in smoke. 584 00:35:33,220 --> 00:35:34,980 'I'm so sorry, Alan.' 585 00:35:38,740 --> 00:35:40,660 Nice knowing you, Bob. 586 00:35:42,300 --> 00:35:45,139 Yeah. Goodbye, Alan. 587 00:35:45,140 --> 00:35:46,860 Cheers. 588 00:35:53,220 --> 00:35:54,860 Love? 589 00:36:01,500 --> 00:36:04,219 Oh, there you are. 590 00:36:04,220 --> 00:36:07,739 They're going ahead - without me, without Bob, 591 00:36:07,740 --> 00:36:11,019 without anyone fighting. Our members' corner. 592 00:36:11,020 --> 00:36:13,459 Did look at paint charts, but... 593 00:36:13,460 --> 00:36:16,259 in the end, I think I just want white. 594 00:36:16,260 --> 00:36:21,099 I'll get it done this weekend, erm... help take my mind off it. 595 00:36:21,100 --> 00:36:22,820 You what? 596 00:36:25,740 --> 00:36:28,140 Yeah, so, erm... SHE SIGHS 597 00:36:30,380 --> 00:36:32,500 ..test came back positive. 598 00:36:37,860 --> 00:36:42,140 Hardly time to catch a cold, is there? Let alone get cancer. 599 00:36:49,860 --> 00:36:52,220 You'll outlive me. 600 00:36:54,700 --> 00:36:56,020 Yeah. 601 00:36:58,500 --> 00:36:59,900 They'll operate. 602 00:37:00,860 --> 00:37:02,819 It'll be fine. 603 00:37:02,820 --> 00:37:06,099 I'll live. I want to live. 604 00:37:06,100 --> 00:37:08,179 I have to. 605 00:37:08,180 --> 00:37:10,059 See some bastards go to prison. 606 00:37:10,060 --> 00:37:12,100 SHE SNIFFS, HE CHUCKLES 607 00:37:18,220 --> 00:37:19,900 I'll put the kettle on. 608 00:37:30,140 --> 00:37:32,180 INDISTINCT CHATTER 609 00:37:47,580 --> 00:37:50,540 Mm. Still here, then? 610 00:37:52,260 --> 00:37:54,460 Tough old bird. 611 00:37:57,300 --> 00:37:59,260 I've, er... 612 00:38:01,140 --> 00:38:04,339 I've been thinking. Oh, God. 613 00:38:04,340 --> 00:38:05,940 No, no. 614 00:38:08,180 --> 00:38:12,700 If we can't find a lawyer by, I don't know, December... 615 00:38:14,060 --> 00:38:16,780 ..maybe it's time to call it a day. 616 00:38:20,780 --> 00:38:22,059 You once said to me, 617 00:38:22,060 --> 00:38:24,219 "If I ever start talking about giving up..." 618 00:38:24,220 --> 00:38:25,659 That was then. 619 00:38:25,660 --> 00:38:29,299 Don't you dare give up on account of me, Alan. 620 00:38:29,300 --> 00:38:33,220 Well, I'm not. It's just, you know... 621 00:38:34,540 --> 00:38:37,339 ..12 years is long enough 622 00:38:37,340 --> 00:38:40,139 to keep banging my head against a brick wall. 623 00:38:40,140 --> 00:38:43,659 Don't you dare! 624 00:38:43,660 --> 00:38:45,739 Cos that would mean the last 12 years of my life 625 00:38:45,740 --> 00:38:47,500 meant nothing, too. 626 00:38:49,260 --> 00:38:51,059 OK. 627 00:38:51,060 --> 00:38:53,899 New plan, then. 628 00:38:53,900 --> 00:38:56,659 Oh, well, maybe you could've fought me a bit harder there. 629 00:38:56,660 --> 00:39:00,379 What about if we all apply, all of us, 630 00:39:00,380 --> 00:39:04,139 to see everything the Post Office has got on us? 631 00:39:04,140 --> 00:39:08,579 Horizon logs, investigation reports, accounts, all of it. 632 00:39:08,580 --> 00:39:12,299 And, er... And then, if we can see them, 633 00:39:12,300 --> 00:39:14,139 I think we've got a much better chance... 634 00:39:14,140 --> 00:39:16,180 SPEECH FADES OUT 635 00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:20,699 JO: You have a lovely day. 636 00:39:20,700 --> 00:39:24,099 And don't dawdle when Mummy comes to pick you up. 637 00:39:24,100 --> 00:39:26,179 Are you gonna come in and help? 638 00:39:26,180 --> 00:39:28,700 No, darling, not today. 639 00:39:30,860 --> 00:39:33,219 Bye-bye, Joshua. 640 00:39:33,220 --> 00:39:34,860 Granny Jo loves you. 641 00:39:36,420 --> 00:39:38,020 Bye-bye. 642 00:39:39,500 --> 00:39:42,979 You were only gonna be helping them make paper hats. 643 00:39:42,980 --> 00:39:45,539 Yeah, it's not the school's fault. 644 00:39:45,540 --> 00:39:47,619 They can't let me be alone with the children 645 00:39:47,620 --> 00:39:49,380 when they know I've got a criminal record. 646 00:39:50,780 --> 00:39:52,300 Oh, God. 647 00:39:53,820 --> 00:39:57,139 Come on. Mum, will you stop it? 648 00:39:57,140 --> 00:39:59,180 TV PLAYING 649 00:40:02,660 --> 00:40:05,419 SHE GRUNTS 650 00:40:05,420 --> 00:40:06,900 SHE SIGHS 651 00:40:07,940 --> 00:40:10,419 This all right? Yeah. 652 00:40:10,420 --> 00:40:13,900 It's fine. Love a toast-based meal. 653 00:40:22,100 --> 00:40:24,419 Are you all right? 654 00:40:24,420 --> 00:40:26,539 Yeah. 655 00:40:26,540 --> 00:40:30,539 Never was any good to me, was it, all that defective equipment? 656 00:40:30,540 --> 00:40:32,980 Never did manage to pop any babies out of it. 657 00:40:34,220 --> 00:40:37,419 And, you know... when you think about 658 00:40:37,420 --> 00:40:40,659 the life we ended up having... 659 00:40:40,660 --> 00:40:43,780 maybe it's OK the children never came along. 660 00:40:55,620 --> 00:40:57,579 I'm here, sorry. 661 00:40:57,580 --> 00:41:00,779 Oh, I think this might be what I've been waiting for. 662 00:41:00,780 --> 00:41:03,300 Exciting. Signature there, please. 663 00:41:06,460 --> 00:41:08,859 Cheers. 'Do they think we're idiots or what? 664 00:41:08,860 --> 00:41:12,419 '146 pages blacked out. It's ridiculous.' 665 00:41:12,420 --> 00:41:17,459 Can you make any sense of exactly what's been redacted? 666 00:41:17,460 --> 00:41:19,059 No, I can't tell, it's all black. 667 00:41:19,060 --> 00:41:20,979 But I'll tell you what's definitely not there. 668 00:41:20,980 --> 00:41:23,019 The memo from my investigator. 669 00:41:23,020 --> 00:41:25,779 The one where he admitted there's no evidence against me. 670 00:41:25,780 --> 00:41:29,139 'The one that proves it's a miscarriage of justice.' 671 00:41:29,140 --> 00:41:30,740 Ridiculous. 672 00:41:31,820 --> 00:41:34,779 JAMES ARBUTHNOT: 'The subpostmasters applied to see this information, 673 00:41:34,780 --> 00:41:36,139 'as is their right, 674 00:41:36,140 --> 00:41:38,699 'and the Post Office think they can just refuse to share it. 675 00:41:38,700 --> 00:41:40,459 'It's simply inexplicable.' 676 00:41:40,460 --> 00:41:42,899 What the Post Office is saying is this. 677 00:41:42,900 --> 00:41:45,219 That there have been about half a million users 678 00:41:45,220 --> 00:41:46,539 of the Horizon system 679 00:41:46,540 --> 00:41:50,499 since it was introduced in 2001, involved in Post Office business, 680 00:41:50,500 --> 00:41:53,579 and that only 150 people 681 00:41:53,580 --> 00:41:55,859 have applied to the mediation scheme 682 00:41:55,860 --> 00:41:58,779 for events spanning more than a decade. 683 00:41:58,780 --> 00:42:01,179 The Post Office is saying 684 00:42:01,180 --> 00:42:04,539 that the idea that there is widespread unfairness 685 00:42:04,540 --> 00:42:05,699 is simply not true. 686 00:42:05,700 --> 00:42:07,139 Well, I would disagree. 687 00:42:07,140 --> 00:42:10,139 These are people who have been pillars of the community, 688 00:42:10,140 --> 00:42:12,779 who've had their reputations dragged through the mud, 689 00:42:12,780 --> 00:42:15,179 who... who've been sent to prison, some of them, 690 00:42:15,180 --> 00:42:18,100 and I understand that at least one has committed suicide. 691 00:42:19,780 --> 00:42:21,379 And, Mrs Hamilton... 692 00:42:21,380 --> 00:42:24,899 you believe that you have done nothing wrong? 693 00:42:24,900 --> 00:42:27,699 I have done nothing wrong. 694 00:42:27,700 --> 00:42:31,099 'I did not take a penny from the Post Office, 695 00:42:31,100 --> 00:42:33,859 'but unfortunately, the contract which runs the...' 696 00:42:33,860 --> 00:42:37,739 Excuse me, could you just turn the radio up? Thanks. 697 00:42:37,740 --> 00:42:40,219 '..many of us in the Justice For Subpostmasters Alliance 698 00:42:40,220 --> 00:42:42,699 'didn't receive a copy of, says quite clearly 699 00:42:42,700 --> 00:42:46,019 'the postmaster is contractually responsible for the losses.' 700 00:42:46,020 --> 00:42:47,059 That's great. 701 00:42:47,060 --> 00:42:49,659 'We did ask the Post office for an interview. 702 00:42:49,660 --> 00:42:52,780 'No-one was available.' 703 00:42:54,900 --> 00:42:56,139 ALAN: 'Alan Bates?' 704 00:42:56,140 --> 00:43:00,579 'Hi, Alan. My name's James Hartley. I'm a solicitor. 705 00:43:00,580 --> 00:43:02,939 'Yeah, I just heard the Radio 4 piece. 706 00:43:02,940 --> 00:43:05,619 'I... I think I can help.' 707 00:43:05,620 --> 00:43:08,179 'I always say to lawyers, 708 00:43:08,180 --> 00:43:10,819 'we're fighting a war against an enemy 709 00:43:10,820 --> 00:43:12,739 'owned by the British government, 710 00:43:12,740 --> 00:43:15,579 'which means they have mighty forces 711 00:43:15,580 --> 00:43:18,699 'and bottomless pockets funded by the taxpayer.' 712 00:43:18,700 --> 00:43:22,499 While we're just... skint little people. 713 00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:23,659 JAMES CHUCKLES 714 00:43:23,660 --> 00:43:27,699 Well, I specialise in contract law, 715 00:43:27,700 --> 00:43:30,739 and this contract is... 716 00:43:30,740 --> 00:43:33,699 114 pages of complete rubbish. 717 00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:37,659 I only got the two-page version. It's unfair. 718 00:43:37,660 --> 00:43:38,699 It's out of date. 719 00:43:38,700 --> 00:43:41,379 It even says you're not allowed to gamble on the premises. 720 00:43:41,380 --> 00:43:44,379 Yeah, when we've got lottery terminals, yeah. 721 00:43:44,380 --> 00:43:49,459 But, you know, we all signed it, or some version of it, so... 722 00:43:49,460 --> 00:43:50,859 Well, yes, but... 723 00:43:50,860 --> 00:43:55,339 a contract that is not properly understood by both parties 724 00:43:55,340 --> 00:43:58,299 is not necessarily legally binding. 725 00:43:58,300 --> 00:43:59,899 OK. 726 00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:04,019 Look, I think it may be possible to raise the money 727 00:44:04,020 --> 00:44:05,579 to fight them in court. 728 00:44:05,580 --> 00:44:08,939 There are specialist funders 729 00:44:08,940 --> 00:44:13,379 who are willing to take the risk, but only if there are enough of you. 730 00:44:13,380 --> 00:44:17,299 We had 130 applicants to the mediation scheme 731 00:44:17,300 --> 00:44:19,059 before the Post office destroyed it. 732 00:44:19,060 --> 00:44:21,220 Mm. 733 00:44:22,860 --> 00:44:25,499 Well, how many would you need? 734 00:44:25,500 --> 00:44:28,100 At least 500. 735 00:44:31,740 --> 00:44:34,780 Well... I can do that. 736 00:44:42,380 --> 00:44:45,739 ♪ Makin' me feel Like I want too much 737 00:44:45,740 --> 00:44:48,659 ♪ Livin' with you Is just putting me through it 738 00:44:48,660 --> 00:44:50,539 ♪ All of the time... ♪ PHONE RINGS 739 00:44:50,540 --> 00:44:52,500 Hello? 740 00:44:53,620 --> 00:44:55,179 MAN: 'Is that Alan Bates?' 741 00:44:55,180 --> 00:44:57,499 Yeah. Who's this? 742 00:44:57,500 --> 00:45:01,579 'I worked at Fujitsu in technical support. 743 00:45:01,580 --> 00:45:03,539 'I was gonna call you...' AUDIO CRACKLES 744 00:45:03,540 --> 00:45:05,819 '..but I wanted to make sure you...' AUDIO CRACKLES 745 00:45:05,820 --> 00:45:08,259 Hang on, hang on. You're breaking up. 746 00:45:08,260 --> 00:45:10,340 I'm going to pull over. 747 00:45:19,380 --> 00:45:20,860 Hello? 748 00:45:35,980 --> 00:45:37,980 PHONE RINGS Hello? 749 00:45:39,100 --> 00:45:41,099 Sorry, I got cut off. 'No, no.' 750 00:45:41,100 --> 00:45:43,019 I... I lost you. 751 00:45:43,020 --> 00:45:46,059 I don't want anyone knowing I'm talking to you. 752 00:45:46,060 --> 00:45:49,379 Of course. I understand. 753 00:45:49,380 --> 00:45:52,779 But they're lying. That's the point. 754 00:45:52,780 --> 00:45:55,139 They say there's no remote access to branch accounts, 755 00:45:55,140 --> 00:45:57,579 but there was a whole room 756 00:45:57,580 --> 00:46:00,939 full of us inside Fujitsu working overnights, 757 00:46:00,940 --> 00:46:03,179 doing thousands of corrections 758 00:46:03,180 --> 00:46:06,459 on Horizon while the postmasters slept. 759 00:46:06,460 --> 00:46:09,339 Nobody's gonna admit it, obviously. 760 00:46:09,340 --> 00:46:10,859 Are you still there? 761 00:46:10,860 --> 00:46:15,499 Yes! Sorry. Er, just getting comfortable. 762 00:46:15,500 --> 00:46:17,419 Please, go on. 763 00:46:17,420 --> 00:46:19,979 'We were just constantly firefighting. 764 00:46:19,980 --> 00:46:22,699 'Coding errors, bugs, data corruption. 765 00:46:22,700 --> 00:46:24,739 'Horizon was much worse than I thought. 766 00:46:24,740 --> 00:46:27,379 'It was shocking. It needed scrapping, really. 767 00:46:27,380 --> 00:46:31,339 'It was hard-coded and hard-designed for a completely...' 768 00:46:31,340 --> 00:46:37,340 ♪ God knows what is hiding In those weak and drunken hearts 769 00:46:37,740 --> 00:46:41,619 ♪ Guess he kissed the girls And made them cry 770 00:46:41,620 --> 00:46:45,859 ♪ Those hard faced queens Of misadventure 771 00:46:45,860 --> 00:46:51,859 ♪ People help the people 772 00:46:51,860 --> 00:46:54,459 ♪ And if you're homesick 773 00:46:54,460 --> 00:46:58,339 ♪ Give me your hand And I'll hold it. ♪ 774 00:46:58,340 --> 00:47:00,380 Subtitles by accessibility@itv.com